Pebbles of Light
Pebbles of Light
017 Finding Inspired Balance in Your Relationships || Melinda Wheelwright Brown
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Episode Notes

Melinda Wheelwright Brown, author of “Eve and Adam: Discovering the Beautiful Balance,” shares some wonderful insights about partnership. 

PEBBLE OF THE WEEK: Identify something in your life that you’ve been thinking of as a “sacrifice” that you can change to think of as an “investment.” This can be related to a relationship with a partner, with a child, with a friend. I’d love to hear your insights on this – feel free to reach out via Instagram or email me at hello@annemaxson.com.

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Find Mindy:

Brave.Like.Eve – https://www.instagram.com/brave.like.eve/

Mindy’s Book: Eve and Adam: Discovering the Beautiful Balance – https://amzn.to/3sJv89e

Talks and Books Discussed:

The Plan of Salvation – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/plan-of-salvation?lang=eng

The Man Adam – https://amzn.to/3cK78gK

Worth the Wrestle – https://amzn.to/3rFugB3

The Moment of Lift: How Empowering Women Changes the World – https://amzn.to/399ppT6

Joy in the Covenant – https://amzn.to/2OcrF3R

This episode on YouTube

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Mindy Rough Edit

Anne: [00:00:00] Thank you so much for being here. I’m grateful for the chance today to speak with Mindy Brown, the author of Eve & Adam. Mindy, would you be willing to give a little bit of background about you as well as your book,Eve & Adam?

[00:00:11]Mindy: [00:00:11] I,  am a mother of four, they’re all raised in grown and,  two married, two undergraduates and a couple of grand babies with another on the way.

[00:00:22]Those are kind of the big parts of my life right now.  And the book was released,  almost a year ago. I spent about four years and the writing research publication process.  The last year has been totally delightful and getting to discuss it and share it and hear what people think and all those things.

[00:00:42] And I just love all the different opportunities. It’s brought.  I am active on Instagram with a daughter and a daughter-in-law who helped me run an account, we call Brave.Like.Eve and we’ve made so many great friends there. And in fact, that’s how Alan and I got to know each other. So I’m like, you’re the perfect example of how social media can be awesome.

[00:01:03] It has been so good for us. And so we’ve really enjoyed that. So that’s a big part of,  what we do and I’m just working on lots of different projects.  I have a background in economics. That’s what my degree is in from Brigham Young University, many years ago. My husband, Doug is a physician and now that our nest is empty,  we get to do a lot of fun, exciting things, mostly visiting our children.

[00:01:27] We love national parks. We like to plan little kind of nearby close getaways for just the two of us. And we’re having a great time with that. We love it.

[00:01:37]Anne: [00:01:37] I was trying to remember our origin story of how we really met and how I became acquainted with,  Eve & Adam and started to learn more about that.

[00:01:46] And I think it might’ve been the LDS living book club. I think might’ve been the first thing. And then I started to follow brave.like.eve we’ll talk about that a little bit more later.  But just the amazing questions and the way that you were able to demonstrate this idea of partnership. And that’s what we’ll talk about today.

[00:02:05] I’m really excited to get your thoughts on the importance of partnership, not only in marriage, but also with the spirit. At the beginning of even Adam you quote Doctrine & Covenants section 42, verse 61, which says “if thou shalt ask thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation knowledge upon knowledge, that will make us know the mysteries and peaceable things that which bring us joy.

[00:02:27] That which bring us life eternal.”. And you go on to talk about kind of the origin story of even Adam and how that came to be. And you said, I’ve come to believe that when I have a problem with some aspect of life or the gospel, including women’s issues in gender relations, it is a challenge of a fallen world, not a problem with God’s plan for happiness, salvation expectation. I’ve learned firsthand that it takes work to learn how the pieces of the puzzle fit together. But I believe they do fit. And the finished product they form is beautiful. Can you talk a little bit about your process as you’re writing, even Adam and trying to answer those questions that you had, that it was a partnership with the spirit to help you recognize the truth of this balance between men and women?

[00:03:12] Mindy: [00:03:12] Yes, that is such a great question. The way youframed all that is I appreciate that. That’s awesome.  I would say first off it was absolutely a partnership with the spirit every step of the way. And I think,  in hindsight, I am really grateful that I feel like I was able to begin the process from a healthy place where I have,  been a lifelong member of the church.

[00:03:41] I feel like one of my spiritual gifts is I am a believer. That’s, it’s relatively easy for me to believe. I just was born with. faith in that regard. And when I started to see gaps in what I believed was the doctrine and the plan, and then what I saw being implemented and what was happening to women.  Even modernly, although it was also historically I had issues with things I was learning and studying and reading, but particularly in modern application and internationally, because I was involved with several non-profits that were exposing me to some of the realities that are really quite harsh and unpleasant.

[00:04:30] And so I just recognize this gap between what life is like for so many women and what I thought it was supposed to be like. And so I really wanted to figure out, is there a gap, if not, that’s a different question I’ll be struggling with, but if there is a gap, why and how can we fix it? How can we improve it so that there’s better alignment with the plan?

[00:04:57] And the doctrine and the truth. I mean, ultimately it’s all eternal truth we’re talking about and then lived reality. And so I really wanted that divine truth to be beautiful. I was coming at it from hoping it was beautiful, but I was also ready to take a microscope to it and really do whatever digging was required for me to make sense of this for myself.

[00:05:25] So it began as a completely individual project. It was not about project at the beginning, by any means it gradually shifted to  maybe a journaling project that my posterity might be blessed by. And then kind of the next step was the more that I began talking about it with other people. And, and I think one of the realities of any sort of project like this is, it just brings people out of the woodwork.

[00:05:51] You just had no idea that everybody was asking the same questions you were. You know, it’s not a coincidence it’s serendipitous and the Lord’s hand is involved when all of these people are finding their way to you and vice versa to have these discussions. And so, it became much more of something that, Oh boy, I think I need to share what I’m figuring out.

[00:06:10] And I think it could make a difference. And then, you know, further down the road, it was maybe there’s actually a real book and this, and that’s a scary thing to say out loud. And so I actually didn’t say it out loud for a while. I kind of sat on that for awhile and then I felt like it was very clear that that was in fact a mission I was being called to and, and I felt like,  and this is a sweet part. I think in the partnership with the spirit is that I felt like it was being offered to me. And it was my choice. I was not in any way, feeling like I had to do this. It was frequently brought up again and again, cause you know, every time you had a really hard day, it’s like, ah, do I really want to do this?

[00:06:55] This is hard, but it was always very gently. I’m reminded that you can choose, but it is time. And if you don’t want to do this. There are other people who will, so we did just keep making progress or it will go somewhere else. And that it made me feel like no, no, no, no. I, I see how I have been prepared for this and the stepping stones have been put in place and I can do this as long as you’re going to keep helping me.

[00:07:28] I can do this and almost on a daily basis when I had that frame of mind. I could see his help every step of the way. And it was just, it was beautiful. It was a spectacular experience for a few years. Having such frequent evidence that the Lord knows me closely cares what I’m doing, speaks my language to me and was able to communicate.

[00:07:57] Ideas and feelings and guide me to all the truths that truly was hidden in plain sight. It just took gathering. And I just felt like I was gathering the pieces. He wanted me to find and gather. And, it was a complete pleasure and joy for me. It will always be one of the highlights of my life.

[00:08:17] I am sure that I was given that opportunity and I’m so grateful. I took it. I am grateful. I chose to accept it.

[00:08:25] Anne: [00:08:25] I’m grateful you took it too.

[00:08:26] Mindy: [00:08:26] Thank you.

[00:08:27] Anne: [00:08:27] And I can’t help while you were talking about that, to think about how. The Lord knows our capabilities and he knows our gifts and he knows our potential.

[00:08:37]There’s a quote that says the opportunity of a lifetime must be seized within the lifetime of the opportunity.

[00:08:42]Mindy: [00:08:42] Yes, exactly.

[00:08:44] Anne: [00:08:44] And so you need to take that chance when you have it. The other thing I thought of was,  Probably, I don’t know the timeline of this, but sister Sheri Dew had given a talk called “Worth the Wrestle”.

[00:08:54] And I feel like that may have kind of played in with that idea of, well, this is a complicated doctrine. I’m not sure where I stand on it. I’m going to wrestle with this.

[00:09:04]Mindy: [00:09:04] Yes. Her book has in my bibliography and I quoted from it. Couple of times, I think in the final manuscript there.  But that philosophy, I mean, there were lots of books that came out kind of in the five-year period before I started writing

[00:09:18] and really before I started researching that really did encourage the wrestle and it, everything was, Hey, questions are good. But come from a healthy place and you know, don’t backtrack, don’t give up your faith and your belief as you search them out. But hang onto that and let that inform how you search and that, that, I think that is such an important direction that we have taken in the culture of the church and how we talk about our questions and,  the wrestle.

[00:09:53] And yeah, I love that book. It’s a super, super resource. I think it’s interesting too. There’s sometimes when you use the word feminist, you know, people, it kind of has a negative connotation. And I feel like that’s softened over these past two years, especially as there’s been so many books coming out.

[00:10:11] Anne: [00:10:11] And I have a quote from a book that I know both of us love written by a different Melinda, Melinda Gates.

[00:10:16] Mindy: [00:10:16] Love it.

[00:10:17]Anne: [00:10:17] It’s called “The Moment of Lift”. If you haven’t read it, I’ve mentioned it on the podcast so many times. Hopefully people read it, but she says being a feminist means believing that every woman should be able to use her voice and pursue her potential and that women and men should all work together to take down the barriers and end the biases that still hold women back.

[00:10:37] Mindy: [00:10:37] Yes. So that idea you were talking about of the gap and how do we fix that gap? Do you think that your desire to learn more about it was somewhat perpetuated by the fact that you have young adult daughters living in the world and trying to navigate things and, and not only within the church, but within society finding their place as women?

[00:11:00] Yes, I think so. Although I would also say that my daughters haven’t been as bothered by the gap. As I was, I think it was really personal to me. Like I was losing sleep over things like bride price and,  you know, FGM, female genital mutilation like that. I was really, really struggling just to keep breathing some days, as I learned more about some of those things and pornography and all the effects of that.

[00:11:32] And I think just as a mother, it was really my mother heart. I think more than my daughter heart, that caused me to just recognize, Oh, this is awful. We have to do something about this. And I think I started the project thinking. Well, this will inform my nonprofit work and I will be more effective at my projects, like boots on the ground type of things that I go and do.

[00:12:01] And I think one of the surprises was I realized that actually maybe the very best place I could apply my gifts and my talents was to share these ideas with the core membership of the church, because then it would almost be like, I’d be training a whole army to go and fight this battle with me. And I wanted to be supported by many more people around me

[00:12:28] who we were all on the same page, feeling the same way with the same evidence in front of us to then move forward and make a big difference. And I think just my, probably my economical mindset, right. Felt like, you know, actually that would be a more efficient way to do this. I was really influenced by the phrase in the Book of Mormon about trying the virtue of the word of God.

[00:12:51] And I felt like, I think that’s applies here is like, let’s get our doctrines straight and then let’s all work together to do it better. And I think we’re seeing that everywhere. It’s not just me by any means. There’s really feels like, there is a bubbling up of this like the dam is breaking and this is happening everywhere and it’s just time.

[00:13:13] It is time and it’s thrilling because there is a difference happening. And I am so grateful that my daughters can see it happening and participate in it. And so,  I’m thrilled on every level for every stage.

[00:13:30] I agree. Yeah. Regeneration. Yeah.

[00:13:33]Anne: [00:13:33] In the book, you also talk a little bit about how an attack on gender relationships and family, and in general is.

[00:13:42] I don’t know an assault on society.

[00:13:45] Mindy: [00:13:45] Yes, absolutely.

[00:13:47] Anne: [00:13:47] Can you share a little bit more about your thoughts on that?

[00:13:50] Mindy: [00:13:50] Yes. Yes. So,  I think the way that I like to think of it is I think sometimes we imagine kind of a Venn diagram where we have a bunch of circles and there’s some degree of overlapping, right.

[00:14:03] And the circles might be family society, government. Church life. Neighborhood school, all these things. And it’s just this messy Venn diagram was various levels of overlap, but I think it’s actually a better model to see it as a bullseye with a series of spheres, with the center sphere, being home and family.

[00:14:31] And actually even within that center sphere, husband and wife, and, and perhaps if we were going to say. There’s an absolute nucleus like pinpoint center. Well, that would be self because we need to understand our personal divine identity. First and foremost, I think it’s very hard to have a healthy relationship with a spouse or,  anybody if you have this fuzziness there, it’s so much better served. If you truly get your divine identity. And then if that first circle is your relationship with your spouse and then your immediate family, and then your extended family. Now, then you might say neighborhood church, community, just this growing kind of bulls-eye look at things, then you really recognize that.

[00:15:19] Everything we bring to all those other relationships is influenced by what happens in the home in large part, because that’s where our most durable learning is happening as children. And as we’re growing up, it’s, what’s sinking in and sticking is how we’ve seen our parents relationship and how we are having those relationships with our siblings and siblings of different genders and, and just.

[00:15:48] Figuring out how we can all work together better and more effectively. And, you know, nothing is more tangible and,  and no. Space is our embodiment like more put to use than in a family where like you’re literally punching each other in the arm and wrestling and, you know, maybe even get an occasional kick of little kids on each other, pushing and shoving it.

[00:16:13] And it’s just this hey, hold on. Let’s figure out how to make this work better. And if our children, especially. can see at this beautiful interdependence happening in their parents, just imagine how that informs how they go out  and interact with members of the opposite sex, whether that’s in their elementary room classroom, or,  on their playing field and whatever sports they’re doing or, I mean, you name it.

[00:16:39] It ripples out to all the other circles.

[00:16:43] Anne: [00:16:43] Yeah. So what role does sacrifice play in that, in that partnership and that interdependence?

[00:16:51]Mindy: [00:16:51] That is such a good element and piece that really matters. And,  at the, my very favorite way to address that idea is actually to share this idea from Elder Hafen. So Bruce C Hafen and his wife, Marie have written so many great things about,  balanced interdependence between men and women.

[00:17:11] And he is a lawyer by profession and a very successful credibly wise and intelligent one. And one of the things that he has taught is this difference between a contract and a covenant. And so the way I have kind of interpreted what he has said, very, very simply because I’m not the legal mind.  I would say that a contract is a legal document.

[00:17:37] That is carefully designed to allow either party to walk away from trouble. And officially each participant is literally required to give 50% it’s designed that way. So it’s the epitome of like tit for tat or quid pro quo, but a covenant relationship is inherently different because. It’s designed to help both sides work through troubles.

[00:18:02] And it’s a partnership that depends on both parties giving 100%. And so when we’re thinking that that way there has to be sacrifice involved, but I think it’s so important when we talk about the word sacrifice. I really prefer the word investment, because if we’re going to dig into sacrifice, we see that it’s really a matter of giving up something good now for something better later? Well, that’s exactly the same definition of investment, but sacrifice has a bit of a negative connotation to it where investment, you can see the growth. I mean, it’s all about growth, potential and possibility. And so I think we always need to be looking at where can I. Give a little more and give a little better and give a little more effectively so that we have better growth together, a better interweaving of our lives together, because what often tends to happen.

[00:19:02] Even a among the best of the best individuals in a marriage or in a partnership is you live parallel lives because you’re both busy and you’re doing great things. But if you can’t find a way to interweave those parallel lives, Then you’re really not sharing a life. You’re living two separate lives, even if they’re happening side by side.

[00:19:25] And what we want is for them to be interwoven because that’s where the synergy comes into play. So instead of one plus one equaling two, now one plus one can equal five, especially if you choose to collaborate with the Lord as a couple, and then the sky’s the limit. I mean, there’s so much potential.

[00:19:45] Anne: [00:19:45] I love that word change of sacrifice to investment, because I feel like sacrifice.

[00:19:49] You’re thinking it’s something you don’t want to do you, I mean, who would want to sacrifice something, but to invest something that’s a totally different perspective. Thank you for that. I feel like, I can’t remember if you talked about this in your book, in my mind, there’s a section of your book where you talk a little bit about this in regards to, I want to say it was tennis.

[00:20:11]Mindy: [00:20:11] Well, I do mention tennis in there. Yes. And I think what the part you’re talking about is actually something that my husband taught me very inadvertently. And when he read this portion of my manuscripts, he was so surprised. No idea that that mentioned anything to you. I suppose I should have told him thank you much earlier, but we were having the discussion because like I said, he’s a physician and in the medical world, especially,  In generations past, this is maybe not so common now, but there used to be kind of this element of wanting to Moonlight.

[00:20:45] That’s what they called when you would go work for other groups. So if you had time off, you could go moonlight somewhere to help you pay down your student loans, basically. And we did plenty of that in his residency. We were really blessed to have opportunities to do that because we all wanted to get out of debt.

[00:21:01] But when you join a partnership is especially a medical partnership, but it’s also, I’m sure the same with a law partnership or business partnership or whatever. You’re really combining your lives and tying them together. And if you don’t bring your best to the partnership.  It’s really unfair. I mean, you’re not, you’re not holding up your end of the deal.

[00:21:27] If you are going off and, you know, metaphorically moonlighting and using your best energy somewhere else. And you’re coming back to the group, exhausted and worn out, even if you were doing that on your own time, on your vacation time or whatever, you’re still damaging your partnership. So you really have to be wise with how you’re juggling that balance.

[00:21:47] And so for me in my marriage, I actually would say that was one of our biggest struggles and not our, my biggest struggle is I think by necessity,  physician spouses often learn to be very independent because we’re alone a lot, especially in the early years. And I really value my independence. Truth be told I would love to live on a deserted Island sometimes.

[00:22:13] And I’d be perfectly fine there all by myself, but that is not life and that’s not how it’s meant to be. And when, when my husband kind of shared this and he was sharing it and a matter of something that was going on at the hospital, and I was just sort of listening to him, kind of musing over the issues.

[00:22:32] And I asked him questions like, well, wait, if that was okay, Vacation time. Why does that matter? And then he kind of enlightened me to this idea that no, no, you have to bring your best to the partnership, but it really did cause me pause. And at the time I had taken up tennis and I was playing a ton of tennis.

[00:22:52] And I mean, that was just one of the many hobbies and interests I had and things I was doing, but it happened to be particularly physically exhausting. And so by the time he would come home at night, I was often so tired. I just didn’t really even feel like filling him in on what was going on in my life.

[00:23:08] I thought, well, I’ll be nice and listen to what he wants to tell me that doesn’t need to know all those details. And what I discovered was actually I need, I can do all my other things, but I have to save my best pieces for this partnership. And I have to let him in to all those things going on in my head and what I’m feeling during the day, because that’s, what’s going to weave us together and make us more powerful.

[00:23:34] And that was really a turning point in our marriage and in our lives. And I think we became a much more effective partnership when I figured that out.

[00:23:43]Anne: [00:23:43] There’s a great quote from Julie B. Beck from the talk “Choose Ye This Day to Serve the Lord” where she talks about. I think she talks about it in other places too.

[00:23:50] I’m sure it’s in “Joy the Covenant.” And she talks about shift work and how being, especially as a mother, you, you work shifts and. For a lot of the growing up years, the most important shift is that that swing shift that afternoon to dinnertime craziness, and how you need to make sure that you have reserves and you are ready for that few hours of time in order to invest. So that idea, again, of giving up something during those other hours, if you need to, in order to make sure that you’re prepared for that time when you’re dedicated to your family.

[00:24:23] Mindy: [00:24:23] That’s exactly right. And it’s really emotional energy that you need to keep in reserve. You can’t be so drained emotionally that you can’t have quality conversations where you’re sharing.

[00:24:36]Anne: [00:24:36] There’s a quote.  So this was actually on an Instagram post that you guys had posted a while ago on Brave Like Eve from Sister Bingham.

[00:24:44] And she says the most effective way to fulfill our divine potential is to work together blessed by the power and authority of the priesthood.  I love that idea of fulfilling our divine potential. That’s what we were just talking about at the beginning of this interview, where you were talking about finding your place in writing this book and fulfilling part of your divine potential. What role for you does the power and the authority of the priesthood play in that for you? And, and how does that balance with your husband, Doug?

[00:25:12] Mindy: [00:25:12] Oh, yeah, that’s a good question. Well,  the I’ve I first thought when you started sharing that quote from her, that amazing talk she gave about,  “Accomplishing the Work of the Lord Unitedly”.

[00:25:22] And,  and that’s how, that’s not the exact, title of that talk. But it’s along those lines.  One of my very favorite points she makes early on in that talk is that she says that Adam and Eve realized that their mortal mission was identical to their eternal mission.

[00:25:42] And that phrase really struck me and has stuck with me because I think we sometimes compartmentalize those. And somehow we think that it’s like this hasn’t been my life and that half of my life. And that’s such a limiting, way to see that because it’s when the overlap is complete, there are a hundred percent aligned and we recognize that they’re one in the same, like this is eternity right now. Eternity doesn’t just start later. It started way back and it’s been happening all along and we’re meant. To be enjoying and learning and growing through the entire process. And that’s, that’s one of the pieces of our gospel perspective that I just find absolutely thrilling. And so joyful is that it’s, it’s all part of eternity happening right now.

[00:26:36] And it’s all good. We can learn from all of it. And so I think when we keep that alignment, we can recognize that by working together and really tapping into the strength of our covenants, of being yoked with Christ, and we do that through making covenants with him. And then  in a covenant marriage, that’s really all three pieces, man, woman and deity, really the divine family.  We can tap into these strengths that can make all the aspects of mortal life better and stronger and more effective. And when we do that and live that way, we’re making such a difference.  In all of our brothers and sisters lives as well.

[00:27:24] I mean, that’s really the gathering and the bringing together the family of God is through collaboration, divine collaboration, and covenantal collaboration.

[00:27:37] Anne: [00:27:37] I’m learning so much.

[00:27:39]  I’ve done that where you separate it. And I think part of it is the way that we talk about the plan of salvation, where you talk about, okay, first we’re here, then we’re here and this is a test. And then we go back. And so a lot of times you think, Oh, I’m not on vacation. I’m on like “Survivor.” Yeah.

[00:27:59] And then I need to go back. And so. Yeah,  that’s really insightful to think about it as just a continuity of the process, which of course it is. But sometimes in our brains we kind of tend to forget that part of it.

[00:28:10] Mindy: [00:28:10] Yeah. Well and all process. I mean, that’s one of the huge differences with how our faith tradition, views Eve and Adam’s story with the rest of the world who all know the story.

[00:28:22] I mean, even beyond just. Basic Christianity. Everybody knows this origin story and they tend to see it as events that were just concise happened happen badly, you know, visually it was mistake. But we see it as this ongoing process, which Christ was there through the entire process. And that is such a different perspective on it and very healthy, helpful perspective that helps us apply it much more effectively rather than misapplying it, which is what has often happened through the course of history, with their story.

[00:29:02] Anne: [00:29:02] Yeah, I’ve read a quote. There’s a  talk. I think it’s called “The Man Adam”.

[00:29:07] Mindy: [00:29:07] Oh, yes. There’s a book called that. Yes, that’s correct. That’s in my bibliography and I’ve drawn from that.

[00:29:12] Anne: [00:29:12] And it talks about when Christ was suffering in the guardian guest seminar and an angel came that directly.

[00:29:19] The angel was Adam or Michael.

[00:29:22] Mindy: [00:29:22] Well, yes, Bruce R McConkie proposed that idea and his comment was who else would have been more suited for that to be now? Yeah. If I can just take a little liberty and just point something out in fact very most suited, would it be Eve. Because of what she was doing and how similar it was to what his role was.

[00:29:49] I mean, she was absolutely a type and shadow of Christ in her decision to be willing, to make such a sacrifice for all of humanity. And I love that they share. One of their very sacred titles, which is the name life. Eve’s Hebrew name is Hava, and that means life and Christ is the life and the light of this world.

[00:30:11] And that is a unique thing that is shared between the two of them that I find absolutely spectacularly, beautiful and empowering. And, you know, I think it’s wonderful.

[00:30:21] Anne: [00:30:21] I love that idea of one of the interviews I was just telling you about that will air before this,  it’s a mother daughter interview and the daughter’s son had passed away when he was four and a half months old.

[00:30:33] And later the grandmother, my friend, Janet, was going through chemo therapy and had ended up with encephalitis and all sorts of really horrible things. And the son who had passed away had had chemo and radio or not. I don’t know if he had radiation. He had a bone marrow transplant when he was stressed, this little guy.

[00:30:52] Right.  And she had an experience where she felt an angelic presence, and it was this grandson of hers who it made sense that he would be the one to come because he had been through those very similar things. And so he was the one there to comfort. So I love that idea of, of Eve being able to be involved with that idea of comforting Christ because of her greater understanding of the emotional side.

[00:31:20] Of what was going on. And I mean, always the balance between the Atonement of Christ and the fall. Yeah.

[00:31:26] Mindy: [00:31:26] Yes, yes, yes. So interwoven, I mean talk about interdependent. They both completely dependent on each other

[00:31:33] Anne: [00:31:33] and they were both completely necessary for success.

[00:31:36] Mindy: [00:31:36] Yes, absolutely. It’s and it’s the interweaving of agency and at-one-ment that really is at work.

[00:31:44] They’re so important.

[00:31:46]Anne: [00:31:46] We mentioned a little bit at the beginning about your Instagram account to brave like Eve and I personally, I love this account. I’m, I’ve been slacking on my social media, but,  it’s one of my favorite ones and you always incorporate great artwork and ask these just great ponder questions to think about things.

[00:32:02] Can you talk a little bit about how brave like Eve came to be, how you’ve decided to incorporate the artwork?

[00:32:09] Mindy: [00:32:09] Yes, I would love to. So,  With the publishing process, it was just necessary for me to step into the world of social media, which was totally foreign to me. And I was happy with that. I was so fine not being there.

[00:32:24] But I very bravely did it because I felt like I had to. And,  it has, it truly has been delightful, like I said, early on as we began, but,  I also knew that I couldn’t do it alone,  in large part because I am not technologically savvy. And,  luckily I have a daughter, Candace, who’s my third child who shares a lot of my same interests and ideas.

[00:32:50] She’s an art history major at BYU. She’s a junior. And then I have a daughter in law. Who’s married to my second child, Zach and her name is Allie and she is just wise and brilliant. And they’re both avid readers and I’m always searching for quality information and enlightenment. And so I asked both of them because there are in a season that I thought, perhaps they might like to do this with me.

[00:33:17] And I said, Hey, would you come on board? And let’s partnership in this. Let’s let’s do this together. And that has been the greatest blessing. I just can’t even rave enough about how delightful it is to share this opportunity with those two who I love so, so much. And,  because of our different ages and kind of specialties,  I think we can cover some broad approaches on things.

[00:33:45] And so it resonates with a lot of people.  And Candace, especially because of her art background,  said, well, yeah, let’s make sure we have the best art. And I felt the same way. I love beautiful artwork. And so does Allie. And so that’s kind of one little special feature of what we do. We feel like everything should be beautiful.

[00:34:06] We really appreciate beauty and all forms, and we want beautiful insights.  Our focus is always, always encouraging and uplifting. I hope nobody ever reads anything that’s a downer there. We just feel like there is enough downer everywhere else. Our job is to lift and, encourage , Invite bravery and courage into peoples everyday world and to look at things from a lens of bravery and really faithful courage, which is how I like to talk about one of Eve’s very best characteristics was her faith and courage. So that’s where we come from and we love it. And as long as it keeps doing well, we’ll keep doing it if you will want to enjoy it.

[00:34:52]We love our whole community. We call them our brave friends and we’ve gotten to know so many people that way. It’s just, it’s been a joy of COVID frankly, because in a time when there has been so much loneliness and aloneness, we feel like we actually have about 3000 wonderful friends and that’s a real gift.

[00:35:12] Anne: [00:35:12] Yeah, I would add insightful to the list because I feel like I always learn something. When I’m reading through what you guys post, your stories, the comments that people share. And I love that you frequently will ask a question and people answering the question box and then you’re able to share.

[00:35:29] And so you really get a lot of insights from others as well. So I really love that community.

[00:35:34] Mindy: [00:35:34] Thank you. That’s our goal. Thank you so much.

[00:35:37]Anne: [00:35:37] The last question is always the same one. The purpose of pebbles of light is to celebrate those relationships that have helped brighten our path and in turn, help us to light the paths of others.

[00:35:47] So who are one or two or three people who placed a pebble of light in your paths?

[00:35:51] Mindy: [00:35:51] Oh, you know, there are so many, and I love this. I love this focus of your podcast. It, I never ever listened and, and not brought to tears at some point, which for me is good. I like to be reminded of the spirit through my tears.

[00:36:04] So thank you.  I actually have three, I’m going to share them very briefly each. The first is one of my young women’s leaders. When I was a young teenager who had. The most insatiable thirst for knowledge and understanding that was just completely contagious to me. And I would say the thing that was so special about her is that she valued learning over teaching.

[00:36:33] And as a teenager, I could really sense the difference and the difference spoke to me. And I think she just lit a spark in me that it’s probably fair to say it kind of smoldered for many years, but it was there and it eventually grew into kind of a raging bonfire where I just feel like. There’s just nothing that I wouldn’t want to have a few hours to dive into.

[00:36:58] I’m a rabbit hole or, and so,  I just think, Oh, if you dig deep enough, you’re gonna find some amazing connection between anything and the gospel and truth and light. And so I love that and I attribute that to really her, her guiding me in that direction. So I love that pebble that has made a difference in my life.

[00:37:18] And then,  the other two would be Allie and Candace. And so I just say about each of them,  Allie one of her very special gifts is she is steady. She is just steady engine in any family where you have all sorts of rollercoasters going on. It is such a blessing to have someone who is steadily logical, practical, faithful dedicated, devoted. She has all of those things and it’s,  it’s such a source of strength for me that I can know that if I need to lean there, she is solid enough to take it and I can lean for a moment. So that is a huge blessing. I love that light. She adds to my life and then canvas,  Candace is just one of my dearest soulmates.

[00:38:15] We, I think it, I’m sure it’s partially, at least genetic, we speak the same soul language and I don’t just mean language. I mean, dialect colloquialisms, we can pretty much read each other’s minds and hearts in a way that is such a blessing. And I just have, especially as she said, It’s gotten older and matured and she’s a full grown adult.

[00:38:43] Now. She just has this wisdom that on days that I feel like I don’t, I know I can get it from her. And I have been so grateful for her encouragement. She was the one through the book process.  The writing process that it got to the point where I would say if I was ever going to be traveling, I’d remind her where the flash drive was.

[00:39:05] And I would say it’s all backed up. If anything happens to me, you must finish. And she was so grateful when that burden was lifted. When the book was polished, she said, Oh, hell Louie, I can stop worrying about anything happening. But,  you know, it is a blessing to know that there is somebody who knows you and loves you so well that they would in fact, Finish what you had started if you were unable.

[00:39:31] And for me, that’s Candace and I just am so grateful for that. So those three and a thousand others, thousands of others. So thanks for giving me the opportunity to reflect on a few of those pebbles. That’s really sweet.

[00:39:45] Anne: [00:39:45] Yeah, of course. Thank you so much for being here. I really have appreciated, like I said, I’ve learned so much in this little conversation, and just great insights on things.

[00:39:54] Where can people find you? Where can people find your book? Let’s end with that.

[00:39:58] Mindy: [00:39:58] Okay. My book is available on Amazon or a Deseret book, or, you know, all the places. My full name and what you’ll see on the cover is Melinda Wheelwright Brown. So don’t be looking for Mindy cause you won’t find that. And then we’re at brave.like.eve.

[00:40:12] That’s brave.like.eve would love to have you join us there. You know, basically those places, lots of podcast opportunities and other things coming. So keep your eyes open and we’ll always link to anything. We’ve got some highlights on our Instagram. If you want to go back to Different speaking events or whatever.

[00:40:31] I love to be able to share this truth with everyone and hear everyone’s insights. And thank you for your great questions today. That you’re the one who pulled out the different topics of conversation and insight there. So thank you. It was fabulous. I love being with you. Thank you so much!